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Gentlemen,

I could go on and on about why I think replica equipment is appropriate for Hickory golf, but I would just like the opportunity to address the concerns that have been presented, which seems to be that original equipment and replicas are not on a level playing field.

If the replica is a true replica/duplicate of the original, then why are they not the same? It has been mentioned that replicas are cast and not forged, as if castings are better. Castings are not better. Any type of groove or face pattern can be cast into the face, so there is not a “groove” advantage. The reason a replica is cast is that it is not economically feasible to create tooling and pay the price of a forging. The exact same club can be made by the casting or the forging process. The forged head will cost 5 to 8 times more than the cast head.

The purpose of the Society of Hickory Golers (SoHG) is to promote the play of hickory golf; to promote the experience of golf in a manner consistent with how the ‘royal and ancient game’ was played in the hickory era. I have incorporated this mission into every club we offer, especially the part about the experience of golf in a manner consistent with how the royal and ancient game was played in the hickory era. We at Louisville Golf have gone to great pains to make our replica clubs as close to an original as humanly possible.

The first iron we replicated was a niblick with a flange. This was a very hard to find original club but was a great club to have for getting out of sand traps. Not every player in the field had one of these clubs in their bag because not everyone could find one. So, do the guys who were able to find an original have an advantage over the guy who couldn’t find one? I think so. I found an H&B Par XL for my bag, but I had a lot of people calling me for one. So I took an original H&B and sent it out to be replicated. Now, everyone has an opportunity to have one in their bag, and the replica is an exact copy of the original. How is that not a level playing field?

It seems the people who are “original only” people are guys who have the time, knowledge, and means to acquire a set of very good, well-tuned originals. I think if you compared those original sets to a set of true replicas, you would find little or no difference in playability. I have heard the argument of a new shaft is better than an old original shaft. That is not true. An original shaft that has been tried and tested for 80+ years is a damn good piece of wood, and would be hard to match in a modern shaft.

I expanded our line to include other irons (all exact duplicates of originals) after having a conversation with Frank Boumphrey at Mid Pines (NC). He told me of his experience in trying to put together a good play set of clubs by buying on eBay. He had spent a few thousand dollars and accumulated a pile of rejects in putting together a good play set. Frank asked me if a short set could be made and offered at a reasonable price to make it easier for a person to get into Hickory golf rather than go through the frustrations he experienced. The outcome of that was Louisville Golf offering an introductory set of four irons and one wood for $675 which is a $185 discount from the regular price.

Again, if a replica is a true replica of an original, how can it be an advantage over the original club? I could take the cleek marks off the original and the Louisville replica, clean them up to the same condition, and you wouldn’t be able to tell one from the other. I was talking to one golfer in Dayton a few years ago and he said he didn’t think Louisville Golf replicas should be allowed. I asked him why? He said “your driver will hit the ball 20 yards further than my original driver.” My reply was that he must not have a very good original driver. And that is my point, not everyone can find GOOD originals.

Here’s what I think replicas do for Hickory golf. They allow the average guy to put together as good a set of clubs as a guy who has the time, knowledge, and money to put together a “super” set of originals. I am always willing to learn, so if there are other issues with the Hickory golf equipment that Louisville Golf is making I am willing to listen.

Thanks,

Mike Just
President, Louisville Golf
e-mail: mjust@louisvillegolf.com

Believe me when I tell you that golf club design is not that difficult, although the larger golf club companies would like you to believe that it is. Proof of this dynamic is the seven new irons depicted and discussed in the latest Golf Magazine (November 2009). It has a Cobra iron on the cover teasing an article entitled “7 Top New Irons.” Turning to page 106 the reader is met with seven of the most complicated looking irons seen in recent memory. As a self-confessed equipment junkie I can readily see that these designs are elaborate hoaxes, made to flash “technology” on the voyeuristic golfer ensnared with techno-lust.

Irons have always been a highly competitive market due to their profit margin and their relative ease in manufacturing. Compare the casting, polishing and applying of decals of these seven models to the manufacturing of a Persimmon wood with over 100 hand operations. (CLICK HERE for video showing the manufacturing of a Persimmon wood.) These seven irons are meant to give the impression that there is space-age technology involved in the design, when little more than perimeter weighting and loft ever influence the golf ball. But man, do they look good.

What we have here is fashion, not technology; and the fashion nowadays is to make a spade look like a Blackberry in hopes that you will forsake the sticks of 2009 for the newer 2010 version. But the fix is in. These irons are no different than the models Cobra, Titleist, Ping, Wilson, Taylor-Made, Adams and Cleveland have offered in the past. (Ping will never design a better iron than the Eye-2.) They merely are new, and a bit different. The golf marketer is counting on the same dynamic that had me thinking, when I was younger, that the new basketball shoes I got for the upcoming season would make me jump higher and run faster. Perception and belief are important variables to consider, and should be factored into any equipment choice, but consider a simpler, and more direct route to more enjoyable golf.

Take for instance, just a few pages later in the issue, Golf Magazine’s look into the bag of 2008 Masters champion Trevor Immelman. (I always learn more from the “What’s In The Bag” page than all the other equipment pages combined. Most equipment sections regurgitate the marketing lines the companies give them.) In his bag he has forged Nike blades, with Dynamic Gold shafts. This “technology” has been around for over half a century and is used by that other Nike player who wears red on Sunday. This simple blade design is a model which many of the game’s top players utilize. Why? It is the surest way for them to become better ball strikers.

The simple fact is that you will never be the best ball striker you can be without feedback, and blade irons give you both feedback and performance. Most golfers do not need heavy offset, and perimeter weighting, and for those who do, I have no judgment, everyone follows their own path trying to enjoy this challenging game more. But I wonder how many use those design features as crutches? In so doing they will never become a better player while being rewarded for shots that aren’t hit in the center of the clubface. Forgiveness is nice, but in irons the amnesty only applies to distance, and accuracy cannot be attained without a well-struck shot. To develop this skill you have to have feedback, and blades provide the information necessary to groove your swing to knock down flags.

These are the principles we based our iron on: the Persimmon Blade 304. This clean design distills the golf experience to just you and the ball. Techno-fashion is not needed to get the ball in the air, and toward your target. We made it out of soft 304 stainless, so mis-hits aren’t so jarring, but give you the necessary feedback in order to improve. With the prevalence of Reality TV shows, making celebrities out of people who frankly don’t deserve such adoration, the seven irons listed in Golf Magazine remind me of such unwarranted praise. They reward mis-swings and supply false positives, robbing the golfer of the data he or she needs to improve. All the new irons look pretty good, but I’ll take a good blade iron to these Complicated Monsters any day.

Josh Fischer
Marketing Director
josh@louisvillegolf.com

Where do reproductions fit in Hickory Golf? Here is how I would have to answer that. The majority of people who buy hickory golf clubs from us have never played hickory golf before. They are people who have become unfamiliar/estranged with the modern game and are looking for an alternative way to enjoy the game of golf. The majority of them never play in one of the many hickory golf events that are available around the country. I know this information because I ask them, I talk with customers and they are very clear about this. They are golfers who go out to the course after work in the evening and have a fun and relaxing time playing with hickory golf clubs. I think they enjoy it because they lower their expectations, and when they hit some good solid shots, they feel good. It is really that simple.
 
So the majority of the golf clubs we sell are geared to these people. They don’t want to spend a lot of money, so I try to offer a “basic” set of clubs – our Intro to Hickory Golf set. This set includes one wood, four irons, and a putter. I suggest a spoon for the fairway wood, a mashie, spade, mashie niblick , and niblick for the irons. This allows them to get around most courses. I sell the set at a pretty good discount to make it more reasonably priced. Most people are satisfied with this set. If they become more interested/passionate about hickory golf, they add some clubs to the set. Some of these people have gone on to show up at some hickory golf events.
 
Last year we helped introduce at least 150 new people to the hickory golf experience. These people didn’t have the knowledge or time to delve into purchasing original hickory clubs. But, now that they have a taste, my hope is that they learn about the history of the old clubs and continue their enjoyment of golf with hickory-shafted clubs.
 
There is a quote I heard recently that I think applies: “Don’t let perfect get in the way of good.” Yes, it would be perfect for there to be enough good original hickory clubs available for everyone who might have an interest in playing hickory golf to have original clubs, but that is not the case. The first irons I offered in hickory were refurbished originals, but I didn’t have enough good irons for the demand I had. I decided to do the best I could by offering replicas that were true copies of original irons. I chose what I thought was the best and most playable originals, and copied them exactly. The feedback that we have received for these choices in models has been very affirming and positive.
 
I admire people who have put together a good set of original hickory-shafted golf clubs. At every hickory event you will see guys showing a new-found original to another player. You don’t see players showing off reproductions. I wouldn’t want everyone to play reproductions, but without them some people would never play hickory golf. And while that is not perfect, I do think it is good. And again, my philosophy is to make the reproduction as close to the original as possible.
 
I don’t expect everyone to agree with my philosophy or point of view; I just wanted an opportunity to explain where I am coming from. You can either agree or disagree, and I will respect differing opinions. But what we are after most is the promotion of hickory golf as a compliment and even an alternative to the modern game, which for all its good has its share of unfortunate pitfalls. Maybe with this stance we can all get back to simply enjoying ourselves on the golf course.
 
Thanks for listening,
 
Mike Just
President, Louisville Golf

e-mail: mjust@louisvillegolf.com
 

QUESTION

Mike,

I understand that hickory shafts use to come in different grades and that the top of the line shafts at the beginning of the 20th century were reserved for top players. What type of rating do current hickory shafts  have? Should hickories be played any differently then steel or graphite? Thanks. My next club is your Bulldog. I love playing hickories and believe that playing them has made me a better player with modern clubs.

Thanks,

Bryan K.

ANSWER

Bryan:
 
Since Hickory is a natural product, there is a wide variation in properties of the wood. We purchase quality Hickory dowels that are made to our specifications.
 
Once we receive the dowels we sort again for grain, weight, and straightness. We actually only put about 50% of the dowels we receive in the lathe to turn - the majority being rejected because of grain and warping. Of the ones we put in the lathe, only half of those are good enough to be used for a playable golf shaft. So in total we only get about 25% yield for playable golf shafts.

We also sort the shafts by flex, so a player who indicates that he needs a stiff shaft, standard shaft, or flexible shaft can be accommodated.
 
I have a copy of the U.S. Department of Agriculture standards for Hickory shafts to be used in golf clubs which was produced in 1929. We meet or exceed those standards on all the shafts that we produce.
 
Hope this answers your questions, and thank you for your business.

Enjoy,
 
Mike Just
President, Louisville Golf
mjust@louisvillegolf.com

See all our Hickory Golf products here
 

Mike Just, Louisville Golf president and one of the country’s Hickory Golf experts, recently responded in an e-mail (below) concerning the use of our Hickory-shafted clubs in the current resurgence of the Hickory game:

Ralph,
 
I came across a blog with some comments that you made about replica golf clubs. I have copied and pasted the comments at the bottom of this email for a reference.
 
I just want you to realize that while your comments about replica clubs being “repro/fakes” might apply to some reproduction golf clubs, they do not apply to the replica clubs made by Louisville Golf. I have taken great pains to make the only difference between the hickory clubs we make and the original that I replicate is the period of time in which they were made. I searched for two years before I found heads that I thought were good enough to reproduce.

When I reproduced our Par XL mashie, I had examined 5 of the same model mashies to find one that had the right weight, loft, and bounce angle on the sole before sending it to the manufacture to be duplicated. You will notice that in the irons I offer, they do not reinforce the set mentality that you mention. The niblick and the mashie are copies of a Par XL and have the dot/dash scoring on the face. The mashie niblick and the spade mashie are Stewarts and have the fine-line scoring that was on the originals that I used. I put the same scoring on my “repros” as was on the originals. The mid-iron is a MacGregor OA which also had the dot/dash scoring.
 
When I replicate a wood model, I send the original club to a mold maker who makes an epoxy casting of the original. It costs me about $350 for each mold. Then I put the epoxy casting in our turning lathe and make an EXACT duplicate of the casting. What I end up with is an exact copy of the original club. The only thing I think is fair game to change is the same specs on the head as might have been changed in the hickory era and they are things like adding weight to the wood heads or changing the loft. These things can be done to originals.
 
I know that other makers of “repros” have taken liberties. One clubmaker took a four-piece set of MacGregor OA’s and came up with a set of 8 or 9 irons. Louisville Golf would not do that. The guy at Sweet Wood isn’t even on the same planet. He has asked me several times to make wood heads for him and I have refused, because he doesn’t understand the spirit of what this is all about.
 
I got upset when I read your blog entry because you are a well-respected person in the arena of Hickory Golf. You actually started this renewal. And I don’t want you to have the wrong impression of what we do here at Louisville Golf. I got interested in Hickory Golf when I first went to Oakhurst with Elmore Just (Louisville Golf founder and my older brother). We started making replica equipment because Hickory players ASKED us to make long nose clubs to play at Oakhurst. When I found out about the 1920, or rubber ball era of Hickory Golf, I started to put together a play set. There were certain clubs that people who were collecting for a while had that I couldn’t find. One was a niblick with a flange that could be used to hit out of traps. I realized there were quite a few Hickory players looking for this type of club, because every time one came up on Ebay, the bidding was fierce and the price was high. So when I finally found my H&B Par XL I liked it so much that I sent it off to be duplicated so other new Hickory players could enjoy that club, and grow the game.
 
I wish there were enough good quality original heads available where there would be no need for replica clubs. But that isn’t the case. And as more people get into playing Hickory Golf the need for clubs becomes greater. My goal at Louisville Golf is to provide them with a club that is as close to an original club as possible. And I think that is good for Hickory Golf, and in keeping with the spirit of the game.
 
I could go on for too long, which I may have already done. But, I would like to relay one more incident to you to show that Louisville is trying to keep the Spirit of Hickory Golf in mind when me make clubs. A Hickory Golfer sent me a MacGregor wooden cleek that he said was very popular with the guys in North Carolina because of the shape. He asked me if I would replicate it. It was a very fancy head with a brass back and a multi-color dowel face. You could tell that the club was originally shafted with steel and had been converted to hickory. It was assumed they were made in both hickory and steel since the club was a 1928 model. I made 5 samples of the club before I found out that the model was actually never made in hickory. It was a 1928 model but it was only offered in the Bristol Steel shaft. I had already taken those 5 clubs to Tad’s tournament in Selma and sold all 5 of them. There were at least 2 more people who placed orders for additional clubs. But once I found out the club never existed in the Hickory era, I stopped making them and refused the 2 orders I took in Selma. I value our integrity more than making a couple of bucks on some clubs that are not in the “spirit.”
 
I know you are a proponent of playing original Hickory clubs, and I think that is great. I think it is okay to have events where only original clubs are allowed. But there is room for replicas too, especially if you want more people to enjoy the experience of Hickory Golf. And if there are going to be replicas, then they need to be true replicas, and that is what we have at Louisville Golf. As I hope I have proven, we take great care to make sure our Hickory Golf clubs are offered in the right spirit, congruent to the integrity and enthusiasm Hickory Golfers demand and display.
 
I would love to have you come down and go through our plant so you could see the pains we go through to make our Hickory-shafted golf clubs as authentic as possible.
 
I would really like to hear what you think about all this.
 
Thanks for listening,
 
Mike Just
mjust@louisvillegolf.com
www.louisvillegolf.com

THIS IS THE ORIGINAL BLOG ENTRY MIKE JUST IS RESPONDING TO:

I, and through my site Hickorygolf.com, only support authentic clubs. So my opinion is a bit biased. (Editor’s note: The original question was about reproduction clubs and their value.) The repro/fakes do allow you to play your modern game and not experience golf of the era. ALL the ones produced have too much modern tech infused in there design. I had pushed for an approval process many years ago when this first came up but there was no way to enforce it. The club designers can no more forget the tech they know while design their wares than you can forget your ideas about the game when you first try playing with them. Of course you will impress your modern knowledge on your play, that is a given. IMO you might as well be playing a modern head with a hickory shaft stuck in it. And that is actually being done by one of the companies. (Editor’s note: Tad Moore Golf.) They force you into a “set” mentality that never really existed in that time. (It started to take shape in the mid 20’s but didn’t take hold until the 30’s when it was almost entirely steel shaft). It all but eliminates the opportunity to add a unique utility club or try a different head shaped version of any of those numbered irons. Anyway, Pandora’s box has been opened and the march is on to change all hickory events to repro/fake events. I don’t believe there are many real club only events left.

Hope that answers your question.

Ralph

Editor’s note: This discussion is going to end up being a personal choice up to the individual golfer to decide, and there probably isn’t a right or wrong answer. What is important is that Hickory Golf be promoted in a way that preserves the game for future generations, so that the origins of the game will always be respected. This is the spirit we at Louisville Golf make all our golf clubs.

THE TRUTH IS NOT OUT THERE
by Joshua Fischer (July 2002)

mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
The world wants to be deceived, so let it be deceived.

Golf, ultimately and universally, is not that important: as allegory, yes — as truth, no. This is merely pragmatic, not cynical.

No matter the love we all feel for golf, in the end it is just a game. For all its inequalities and snobbery, the dark side of golf shows more about the people who play it, than the game itself. And like all things, this frustrating and contemplative pastime indeed has a dark side, and it rears its ugly head in the golf equipment industry.

Golf’s dark wood of error begins in the boardroom, where pressure to turn a profit and the protocol of business generates an interesting and highly human motivation. The large golf companies sell mostly hope, not equipment. And when they market an intangible such as hope, the truth and inherent beauty of the source are lost.

Case in point: Nike Golf is promoting a forged titanium driver that is marketed to outperform a cast titanium model. The Nike titanium driver campaign is a manipulation of the truth, an amplified version of the basic. The company’s point isn’t valid because most every driver today is now being forged; it is a simple fact of manufacturing that companies do it this way. A lot of titanium, a relatively expensive resource, is wasted during the casting process. Manufacturers turned to forging titanium drivers because this process wasted less titanium, and thus, in the long run, was more efficient economically. The marketers at Nike are smart, but also expanding on the obvious.

With the possible exception of Ruger (which was already set up to precision-cast titanium frames for its handguns) it is very difficult for companies to source or manufacture a cast titanium driver. But, in theory, a cast titanium driver should be more consistent because there are fewer pieces to be welded together. The truth is, forging a titanium driver is cheaper than casting one. Nike is winking at the truth as it sneaks by the consumer in order to increase its margin. No one seems to notice because the Tiger plays the club, and Nike is a giant.

Turning a profit with a healthy margin isn’t necessarily bad — it is merely capitalism. But filtered through a game steeped in honor and promoted over time to possess integrity and authenticity, the squirrelly marketing feels dirty. (There are many examples.) These large companies are slowly chipping away at the soul of the game…and they are about to break through, changing it forever. I fear it might be too late. Golf has been overtaken by pigs, and it appears nothing will abate their appetite.

Ping Golf is a good company, but it might have unwittingly started this trend when it released its irons with stronger lofts (Ping Eye II). In 1980 the standard loft for a 5-iron was 32 degrees. A Ping ISI 5-iron has 27 degrees of loft. When golfers hit a 5-iron ten yards further with a Ping, they attributed it to the iron design and not the muscled-up loft. The perimeter-weighted design of the first Ping irons did provide more forgiving mishits, but neither a well struck blade nor a well struck perimeter-weighted casting vary in distance if all specifications are equal.

Equality of specifications is a large reason why the use of Persimmon woods has stagnated, and a large reason why the golfing public has been fooled into false positives. When metals first were used and being compared to Persimmon, you were hard-pressed to find a player who would make the switch to a metal “wood.” With the invention of the graphite shaft, which was longer and lighter, Persimmon was compared to a metal “wood” shafted in graphite while still being fitted with a shorter and heavier steel shaft. It’s like comparing two Ferraris, but one has a Ford F150 truck engine.

Simple physics dictates that the longer and lighter your shaft, the more clubhead speed you can produce. Therefore, the longer drives had nothing to do with clubhead material, but more to do with how the club was being built. And it is no coincidence that it is easier to cast a metal head than it is to craft a Persimmon head. Again, profits, not love, change the game forever.

Quality control of OEM clubs is troubling as well, and is another symptom of the larger problem. We have come a long way since Ben Hogan scrapped his entire first run of forgings because he wasn’t satisfied with them. Callaway Golf is the main offender here. A set of off-the-rack X-14 irons recently tested to have as many as 6 different flexes in its shafts ranging from senior to extra stiff. Professional private clubmakers can attest to this. Callaway clubs are probably what they see most of in their shop for one reason or another, many times due to shaft problems. The quality of Callaway shafts has improved, but buyer beware on shaft flex. There is a good chance that the S on the shaft stands for Something, and not Stiff.

The tactics that most golf companies use to grab your attention and dollar lacks authenticity and inspiration. Every new club has some sort of “Technology” in it. This is becoming painfully repetitive and lacks real imagination. Golf clubs aren’t “Technology” — they’re tinkerings. Technology is computers you can talk to or TVs on your wrist watch, not neon bells and glitter whistles that are all variations on a theme.

The game is evolving, and the equipment is too…sort of. Page through The Clubmaker’s Art by Jeffery B. Ellis and you will see that many “Technologies” have been tried before. You’ll see equipment that looks surprisingly like modern clubs as well as a suspicious looking driver with a spring attached to its metal face insert (Spring Face Technology, of course).

Spring Face Technology is a misnomer, an apparition from the twisted mind of a hungry marketer with stock options. Also known as the Trampoline Effect, the physics of the ball at impact with the clubface has nothing to do with the action that the name implies. A “Spring Face” allows the golf ball to compress less, thus losing less energy and penetrating farther into the air. What the name implies, a trampolining of the ball to spit it greater distances, is basically a manipulation of the truth and bent semantics.

Companies are moving away from referring to Spring Faces and Trampolines and starting to use the acronym, C.O.R. (Coefficient of Restitution - a measure of the clubface’s give at impact.) Instead of a Spring Face, a titanium driver now has a “High C.O.R.” No one is the wiser as the initial bogus descriptions “boing” and “tink” away into oblivion.

By exploiting capitalism, coupled with the affluent and impressionable golfers desperate to play this glorious and beautifully difficult game well, these mammoth marketing companies have become like those golfers who roll their ball in the rough when no one is looking — no one really notices that they have improved their lie.

I wrote this column for the newspaper I worked for before my Louisville Golf career and decided to post it now as I think it still applies. Be aware that it was written in 2002, but no less applicable in 2009. The names may have changed, but the problem remains the same.Joshua Fischer
Marketing Director 

This is from an e-mail I received today from Frank Thomas, formerly of the USGA and an authority on golf equipment. He sends out Questions and Answers that you can go to his website and see archived. This one relates to Persimmon. Mr. Thomas, who we deeply respect and was a friend of Louisville Golf founder Elmore Just, has also, in the past, participated in some of the marketing hype that has golf under its spell currently (as you can reference on the Persimmon bLog here). In this exchange he seems to give Persimmon fairer treatment, and for that we are grateful.

Persimmon Back In the Bag!

Frank,

I went to the range today for lunch and put an old Powerbilt Citation 5-wood in my bag that I found in my garage to take to the range for fun. I haven’t hit a persimmon wood for at least 15 years and was AMAZED at how high and soft it landed on the green 220 yards away. I then took out my Callaway hybrid and hit it just as far and pretty straight but nowhere near as high. Also, I noticed when I hit the persimmon closer to the toe it would draw in and hit a couple on the heel and faded. I felt like I couldn’t miss the target! It landed so softly I was stunned. Am I the only one who is now thinking I should put my persimmon 5-wood in my bag as opposed to these high tech hybrids?

Best regards,

Michael

FROM FRANK THOMAS

Michael,

It should not be surprising that your wooden 5-wood will perform very well and certainly after such a period of purgatory in the closet. It has now learned its lesson and obviously doesn’t like a dark place away from the course. There are other reasons for good performance and this has something to do with your fresh swing and obvious affection for this well-crafted old friend and warm instrument.

Let’s examine the wooden 5-wood from a technical point of view - which may not be half as important as your attitude and good swing motion. The COR (Coefficient of Restitution) is probably very close to that of your hybrid so the ball will come off the club at about the same speed. Because the c.g. (center of gravity) of your 5-wood is most likely farther back from the face than the hybrid the face will present more dynamic loft to the ball at impact. This will send the ball on a higher trajectory, assuming a similar shaft flex. A more flexible, longer shaft will further increase this dynamic loft. The longer shaft - which I suspect is the case but you need to check this out - will allow you to generate a little more head velocity giving you increased ball speed even though the COR is the same.

The down side - for the 5- wood  - is that the Hybrid, which probably has a higher MOI (Moment of Inertia) about its vertical axis and thus will be more forgiving i.e. not twist as much on off centered impacts. It is for this reason that the “Gear Effect” using your wooden 5-wood, is more pronounced when the impact point is on the toe or heel as you describe.

Have fun with your old friend and don’t let it or any other good friend spend long periods of time in a place it doesn’t enjoy. Some will sulk and never perform properly again. I hope this has helped give you a better insight into the social and technical behavior of your old friend.

Frank

I have a few points for pondering. Mr. Thomas alludes to the social behavior of the experience Michael had with his 5-wood, something we recognize as the spirit of the game which we promote. Michael exemplifies thousands of golfers who recharge their love of the game with this type of experiment, either by purchasing a club from us or resurrecting old glory from their closet. “The truth is what works,” whether arrived at socially or technically. What is interesting about Persimmon fairway woods is that they have NEVER been tested against fairway metals or metal hybrids. Mr. Thomas says a metal hybrid “probably” has more MOI than a Persimmon fairway wood, but one has never been tested for this or distance. I am willing to bet the stake of our company on the fact that a Persimmon fairway wood will perform overall just as well as a metal, and the experience Michael had testifies to that end.

Josh Fischer
Marketing Director
Louisville Golf
The Spirit of the Game

Below is an e-mail I received from Craig Braddick recently. He is a Louisville Golf customer, so he is a fan, and we appreciate that. But he is also another thinker, and another golfer, and someone other than me, so I have chosen, with his permission, to post his thoughts. My reason = we are not alone.

Thanks Craig.

Hi Josh:

I read with interest your recent correspondence with Frank Thomas and would like to add my 2 cents. In my opinion, there are no fair tests between persimmon and metal (of any kind) be it a test in a controlled laboratory or a weekend warrior hitting red lined Top Flites on the range, or even Jack Nicklaus with his ball of choice and every modern piece of equipment available.

You may recall in the early 1990’s Petersens Golfing Magazine tried to publish reviews of equipment (far superior to the laughable reviews in today’s press) but when manufacturers were less than impressed with a rating their club got, they pulled the advertising revenue and the whole thing collapsed. Plus, tests done by places such as Golf Labs are inherently flawed as the facilities are rented by companies with an interest to show how their product is superior. Even if one could perform a scientific double blind test, and I am not sure you could get a consensus from the club companies of how to set one up impartially, it would still not provide the answer.

What Frank Thomas and many others in the golf media and the golfing public need to know is there is an alternative to metal woods and the chances are, your game may benefit from it. I carry a Louisville Golf Driver, 4,7,11 and 15 Woods. For me, the clubs are easier to hit than metal woods. They make long par 4’s reachable and give me more birdie chances on par 5 holes, because their design suits my game. This is never taken into account whatsoever by major manufacturers who either follow others trends or create marketing gimmicks to differentiate themselves.

If Frank Thomas would look around he will see virtually every OEM going to clubs with weights that can be moved or added too. Mostly, they are gimmicks, the woods where that weight manipulation can work (along with other factors) can only be found in a well made wooden clubhead.

It is time those in the golf industry took a long hard look at persimmon and realize it still has a role to play in the future of the game. The facts Frank Thomas and many golf club equipment reviewers cannot get over are: 1. Persimmon Golf requires slightly different tactics to make the most of it which cannot often be measured scientifically, unless one compares results and 2. No one will dare do anything to jeopardize advertising revenue.

Craig Braddick

Gratefully I received a response from Frank Thomas about my last post. I sent him an e-mail with the same content and addressing the issues I had with his answer. I received a response to that e-mail and have posted it here, along with a longer reply going into greater detail about the things I feel he just didn’t get by my initial points.

From: Frank Thomas
Wednesday, April 09, 2008
Subject: RE: Persimmon vs. Titanium response

Josh,

I would like to thank you for your e-mail, I am truly sorry you don’t understand the science behind the phenomenon if the increased COR of thin faced Titanium, compared to Persimmon drivers. Tests have been performed to verify this. Also the 0.000035 seconds you quote is the difference in time spent on the face between the persimmon and titanium clubs, not the total time the ball is in contact with the face.

Frank Thomas
www.FranklyGolf.com

MY RESPONSE APRIL 9, 2008:

Mr. Thomas,

Let me be clear here because I am not arguing vs. the science of C.O.R. - I did not write anything that would communicate that. What I wrote described the error of testing with reductive values that assume truth in a vacuum. Tests for metal vs. Persimmon are never given a level playing field and your answer to the question proved it - the spin and launch could be adjusted by other specifications, so what we want is a test that compares Persimmon to titanium with the same parameters, thus singling out all other things except material vs. material. With metal’s C.O.R. we understand we would lose, but what we think would be shown is that a Persimmon driver is not 30 yards shorter than a metal, perhaps it is closer to 6 to 9 yards given the 2 or 3% increase C.O.R. does give you, but let’s be fair and leave bias towards the past out of it. (And thank you for clarifying for me the .000035 seconds. I misunderstood that part; but the point simply was to show that the ball is on the face a very small amount of time.)

I have a question: At a swing speed of 90 miles an hour, and with ALL things being equal, what do you think the distance loss would be in a Persimmon vs. a titanium driver?

I also wrote taking to task two words that do not describe C.O.R., instead they mean to misrepresent it: “spring-like” and “trampoline effect.” C.O.R. allows the ball to decompress less, thus losing less energy, so I think I understand C.O.R. just fine. The language, not the science is my biggest problem, as I think the language the industry uses to sell more clubs is a disservice to golfers, the game, and to our culture. C.O.R. is little like a trampoline or spring. The implication there is that the ball springs from the face, and it doesn’t. It is also never said that you need a high swing speed in order to enjoy the benefits of C.O.R., most golfers either do not (or should not) swing over 110 mph.

I appreciate you taking the time to write me an e-mail in return, and I am more than willing to educate myself as you certainly have a lot I could learn from. But what I am trying to change (or at least be a fresh voice) is the language of our industry and the disrespect that Persimmon gets. In drivers (not our Persimmon fairway woods) I recognize the distance difference, it was explained to us by the USGA a few years ago when we released a Persimmon driver with a titanium insert, but again, I am wary of the skewed empirical testing and the foggy language used therein that misdirects and continually degrades Persimmon when in fact, it’s a pretty fun club to hit. Fun cannot be tested really, but it is an intangible that should not be ruled out.

As the marketing director for the last wood company in the world still able to sell Persimmon woods I am just sticking up for my horse (we like those in Kentucky) and the thousands of golfers who still support us. I refuse to believe that we are selling wood golf clubs off the deck of the Titanic; I am just as surprised as you are that we are still in business, especially after Elmore died. But for some reason we are, and I feel like we’re a voice that still has a valid perspective in the industry - not to fight the sound innovations that have been a part of the game’s equipment tinkerers since the early 20th century, but as a reminder that the spirit of the game may reside in other places than tests in a golf lab.

Best regards,

Josh Fischer, Marketing Director
The Louisville Golf Club Company
The Spirit of the Game

Frank Thomas is no dummy. What he knows about golf would probably dwarf my seven years experience as marketing director of Louisville Golf, my flirtations with a club pro career and my 25 years of being an equipment junkie. But he has made some errors with a recent response he wrote to a golfer asking about Persimmon vs. Titanium; not so much with the facts as with the way he presents the testing of the two. What it exhibits is the biases those (even those who are in-the-know) have toward our favorite material.

A golfer has sent this question to Mr. Thomas: I was wondering that in all your years of testing equipment was there ever a test of actual performance between titanium and persimmon? (The answer really is no, not a fair one at least.) The golfer then continues: As a student of physics, I always wondered if loft, shaft flex, face angle and mass were constants, how much the actual material of construction matter?

Mr. Thomas responds to the question by first by explaining Coefficient of Restitution (C.O.R.). What is disappointing, however, is that he uses the out-dated term “trampoline effect” - which is misleading. The descriptors “trampoline effect” and “spring-like design” are the evil children of overzealous marketers which the golf industry somehow let through into the vernacular. It seems at odds, to us, that a game built on integrity would allow these monikers because C.O.R. is neither like a spring, nor a trampoline. C.O.R. describes a phenomena whereby the face gives a little (a very little) at impact, thus allowing the ball to decompress less, and it then loses less energy. At this point the ball can travel 2 or 3 % further if it is hit directly in the middle and if it is hit with a swing speed of over 110 mph. This is how it was explained to us by the USGA when we were submitting our SMART titanium insert driver for approval.

After a mention of C.O.R. using these stale and misleading terms (ones that we had hoped had passed for the red herrings they are) he says that the reason titanium was proven longer than persimmon was that the persimmon was launched lower with less spin. These two specifications are not static, so again, as it is so often with persimmon, it was not a fair test. The spin and launch can be manipulated by a number of specifications including loft. I can accept that for golfers who swing over 110 mph that they can hit a high-C.O.R. titanium driver 2 or 3 % further, but I do not accept 10 or 15 or 20 yards, not when there are specifications left on the table which can level the playing field.

Mr. Thomas does give credit to the ball for increased distance, but says that it can give you “an additional 8 to 10 yards.” This is also misleading because he uses the word “additional.” For the most part the golf ball really doesn’t know what material it is being beaten with - Thomas states that the ball only remains in contact with the ball for 0.000035 seconds - so any additional yardage it gives a metal club, it can give a persimmon wood as well. So take those yards off the table.

For a man of golf science, it was odd to read at the end of his response that there is “room left for our belief in magic. If we believe that we will get 20 extra yards with a new driver, we will probably make our best swing and actually get somewhere close.” What he is really referencing for the golfer is that distance is finite due to the laws physics, and that if you are searching for distance, then work on your swing, don’t go buy the Holy Grail and later find out it is a can Schlitz beer. Train yourself to hit the ball more solidly and your average distance, over time, will improve. This has less to do with magic than it does with the belief (confidence) that one gets by repetition and practice.

I’ll continue to respond to things like this we see out there which misrepresents persimmon, and, more importantly, muddies the water of a clear game. Honestly golf is this simple = you choose weapons or tools that fit you and that you enjoy playing, you practice with those tools and develop enough skill to reasonably satisfy, you try and hit a small ball into a small hole with that skill, and you have fun doing it. It’s really that simple, isn’t it?

Josh Fischer, Marketing Director
The Louisville Golf Club Company
The Spirit of the Game