Gratefully I received a response from Frank Thomas about my last post. I sent him an e-mail with the same content and addressing the issues I had with his answer. I received a response to that e-mail and have posted it here, along with a longer reply going into greater detail about the things I feel he just didn’t get by my initial points.
From: Frank Thomas
Wednesday, April 09, 2008
Subject: RE: Persimmon vs. Titanium response
Josh,
I would like to thank you for your e-mail, I am truly sorry you don’t understand the science behind the phenomenon if the increased COR of thin faced Titanium, compared to Persimmon drivers. Tests have been performed to verify this. Also the 0.000035 seconds you quote is the difference in time spent on the face between the persimmon and titanium clubs, not the total time the ball is in contact with the face.
Frank Thomas
www.FranklyGolf.com
MY RESPONSE APRIL 9, 2008:
Mr. Thomas,
Let me be clear here because I am not arguing vs. the science of C.O.R. - I did not write anything that would communicate that. What I wrote described the error of testing with reductive values that assume truth in a vacuum. Tests for metal vs. Persimmon are never given a level playing field and your answer to the question proved it - the spin and launch could be adjusted by other specifications, so what we want is a test that compares Persimmon to titanium with the same parameters, thus singling out all other things except material vs. material. With metal’s C.O.R. we understand we would lose, but what we think would be shown is that a Persimmon driver is not 30 yards shorter than a metal, perhaps it is closer to 6 to 9 yards given the 2 or 3% increase C.O.R. does give you, but let’s be fair and leave bias towards the past out of it. (And thank you for clarifying for me the .000035 seconds. I misunderstood that part; but the point simply was to show that the ball is on the face a very small amount of time.)
I have a question: At a swing speed of 90 miles an hour, and with ALL things being equal, what do you think the distance loss would be in a Persimmon vs. a titanium driver?
I also wrote taking to task two words that do not describe C.O.R., instead they mean to misrepresent it: “spring-like” and “trampoline effect.” C.O.R. allows the ball to decompress less, thus losing less energy, so I think I understand C.O.R. just fine. The language, not the science is my biggest problem, as I think the language the industry uses to sell more clubs is a disservice to golfers, the game, and to our culture. C.O.R. is little like a trampoline or spring. The implication there is that the ball springs from the face, and it doesn’t. It is also never said that you need a high swing speed in order to enjoy the benefits of C.O.R., most golfers either do not (or should not) swing over 110 mph.
I appreciate you taking the time to write me an e-mail in return, and I am more than willing to educate myself as you certainly have a lot I could learn from. But what I am trying to change (or at least be a fresh voice) is the language of our industry and the disrespect that Persimmon gets. In drivers (not our Persimmon fairway woods) I recognize the distance difference, it was explained to us by the USGA a few years ago when we released a Persimmon driver with a titanium insert, but again, I am wary of the skewed empirical testing and the foggy language used therein that misdirects and continually degrades Persimmon when in fact, it’s a pretty fun club to hit. Fun cannot be tested really, but it is an intangible that should not be ruled out.
As the marketing director for the last wood company in the world still able to sell Persimmon woods I am just sticking up for my horse (we like those in Kentucky) and the thousands of golfers who still support us. I refuse to believe that we are selling wood golf clubs off the deck of the Titanic; I am just as surprised as you are that we are still in business, especially after Elmore died. But for some reason we are, and I feel like we’re a voice that still has a valid perspective in the industry - not to fight the sound innovations that have been a part of the game’s equipment tinkerers since the early 20th century, but as a reminder that the spirit of the game may reside in other places than tests in a golf lab.
Best regards,
Josh Fischer, Marketing Director
The Louisville Golf Club Company
The Spirit of the Game